REM by Scalestack - Episode 9: Fireside Chat with Meg Goetsch

Listen to the episode on Spotify, and you can watch the interview on YouTube.

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In this episode of Revenue Engine Masters by Scalestack, Elio Narciso sits down with Meg Goetsch, VP of Go-to-Market Strategy and Operations at Forter, to dive deep into the world of revenue operations and AI-driven transformation. Meg brings a vast amount of experience from leading operations at MongoDB, AWS, Vanta, and now Forter, where she is spearheading initiatives to streamline GTM processes, eliminate inefficiencies, and power growth with data-driven strategies.

Meg shares her journey of moving from marketing ops to revenue ops, the challenges of driving change in fast-growing startups versus larger enterprises, and the critical importance of clear ownership and alignment in go-to-market operations. She also offers practical advice for aspiring RevOps leaders, especially in their first 90 days, and explains how to build strong, efficient revenue operations.

With a focus on automation, AI-powered enrichment, and smarter processes, this conversation highlights how revenue teams can stop firefighting and start executing with speed and precision. Meg also discusses the growing role of AI in transforming sales operations and how it can eliminate manual work while empowering teams to focus on strategic decision-making.

Let’s dive in and discover how to take your revenue strategy from chaotic to autonomous.

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ELIO NARCISO: Hello everyone, my name is Elio. I'm the CEO and co-founder at Scalestack and I want to welcome you to the Revenue Engine Master podcast by Scalestack. 

Today, my guest is Meg Goetsch. She is a great leader, and started her career at MongoDB where she was the 24th employee, which is crazy. She helped MongoDB grow to about 700 employees with over a billion in valuation and she has had lots of leadership roles since then, including AWS, where we briefly overlapped (I mean, I saw your name in some email threads, but I don't think that we really worked together while there). She also worked at Vanta, and she's always focused on revenue growth and customer acquisition, and currently she is the VP of Go-to-Market Strategy and Ops at Forter.

MEG GOETSCH: Thank you for having me.

ELIO NARCISO: And so first off, thank you for being here, Meg. Great to have you. Would you like to add any color to your experience or highlight any aspects of your current role?

MEG GOETSCH: I started my career in marketing operations at MongoDB. And since then, I've kind of scaled into go-to-market or revenue ops, however you label it. being able to support across sales, customer and marketing. Right now I'm working at Forter, having the honor to do that there. 

I report right now to the Chief Customer Officer and my team spans enablement, operations, systems, sales development, supporting all of our Go-to-Market teams.

ELIO NARCISO: And Forter is in what stage? How big is it?

MEG GOETSCH: Forter is a later-stage startup, being around for almost a dozen years, focused on primarily the fraud prevention space. So we are supporting brands by making sure when you go buy on the sites that we're on, that you are who you say you are—you're not a fraudulent customer or bot. Since then, we’ve expanded into other product areas. It’s an exciting and useful business, and it’s very cool to interact with a tool like ours, especially since, in some other jobs, you’d have to be a developer to really work with the product.

ELIO NARCISO: You've had roles at very different companies, like MongoDB, which is now considered an enterprise and listed on the NASDAQ. But when you joined, it was a small startup with just 20-plus people. You've also had roles at AWS and now Forter, which is a later-stage company. What’s the common theme across all these leadership roles? What’s the pattern you've seen between startups and enterprises that makes them similar yet different?

MEG GOETSCH: I think the thing that’s always really helped me is that you always have problems to solve, no matter what job you're doing. Every company is going through some form of scale. Sometimes it's hyper-growth, sometimes it's slower growth. So you’re always growing in some way. What’s helped me in my role is getting clear on the problem. It can be really hard sometimes to take a step back and look at huge complex problems. But if you can narrow them down to exactly what you're trying to solve and bring a working group of people around you, it will help save time. Although it can be very difficult, this has been true in every business I’ve been in and has been really helpful in my career.

ELIO NARCISO: Between a fast-growing startup like MongoDB and, let’s say, AWS, what would you say is the best feature of a fast-growing startup versus the best feature of an enterprise like AWS? What can we all learn and apply in our jobs, regardless of whether we work at a startup or an enterprise?

MEG GOETSCH: I think having a problem solving framework is helpful in any job that you're at. But I think something also that I've noticed is having an open mindset, you might go into tackling a problem from one perspective and through exploring the data and listening and that kind of research process, realizing that it's a totally different problem that you actually need to solve.

And so I think a lot about growth mindsets. That's a useful framework for me. And it's making sure you don't pigeonhole yourself into trying to solve something because of maybe where you first came into the problem from. And that's been true at any stage and companies that have really strong framework thinking around solving problems. Amazon, I think, has lots of frameworks.

They help you a lot there, but even in any startup, you can kind of pick up some simple ways to think about working through a problem and that can help you solve challenges.

ELIO NARCISO: 

I've also had this type of diverse experience at startups and at larger companies, including AWS. And I feel that startups, you learn how to move really fast and adapt to constant change. And instead of an enterprise, you learn how to dive deep and really learn the craft, increasing your standards in how things can get done. 

There are a lot of leadership principles at Amazon that since day one, are constantly reminded to the people. And so, I'm curious about what your top leadership principles are, like at Amazon.

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, I think the one that stays with me the most, I think there's 16 now, there were 14 when we were there, is the ownership principle.

I actually think ownership is something that should be with you any size of company, any job that you're in, but the way they phrase that principle in particular, and it's all about thinking about the longer term value of what you're trying to solve for and also thinking beyond just yourself, your role, your team, and what does the business need to solve? 

And so that's something I really try to encourage my teams to think about is what is the business impact that you're driving? What's the business problem you're solving? And if you're just solving a problem because you want to make a metric look great for a team or you're kind of boxing in a solution that can, it can miss other parts of the business and actually you might end up wasting a cycle, just solving narrowly. 

So I was thinking, one thing that I think about, that Amazon taught me actually with operators is think of your job as a Chief Operating Officer of whatever part of the business that you're assigned to. And so with that, and the COO concept helps me think about it, know, think really broadly holistically.

You know, use the money like it's your own and really make sure you're making the right decisions for the business. so ownership sticks with me. Top one for sure.

ELIO NARCISO: And I love that, being like the mini CEO of your business in the prior episode, one of my guests had that,he expected there he's like reps to run the pipeline, right? It's their PNL. And so like, I think it's a great analogy, operators being mini CEOs of their business is a great way to frame it.

How do you hire for that? I mean, you're building these teams at several companies. During the time they spend with you, they learn new things and work with you. But how do you hire for that?

MEG GOETSCH: I got a chance to be a bar raiser at Amazon, which was amazing because it was so structured around leadership principles. So you really had a structured approach there. I think the way that I think about it outside of Amazon is being clear on the role because not every role might not by paper seem an ownership role. But it's kind of asking. I think one of the questions I always like to ask is, you know, tell me about a problem that you solved, that wasn't within your remit of responsibility, and how you went and you solved it. And that can help you understand how people think about that, because some folks can get very territorial or just say, is where I'm, I need to be focused on. But you can see that by looking across at other groups or impact areas, and then also how you bring people along with you as you solve some of those problems. It's a, it's a big part of, if you do solve something outside of your designated space. You're going to need some other groups to be with you on that. Otherwise it won't last.

ELIO NARCISO: I didn't know you were a bar raiser. I was a bar raiser too. And that mentality has stayed with me over the years. 

I think it's one of the best legacies of my experience at Amazon, to be honest, because it's applicable to other companies and for the people like a bar raiser is basically somebody that gets involved in all hiring processes and has veto power even over the hiring manager, because they are the people that sort of guarantee that the bar for like somebody that gets hired is high. Great. 

Thank you for sharing that. 

So you're now building that at Forter: a high performing revenue operations team. 

So how do you balance the efficiency that you can get at larger companies, but also maintain the agility that is more typical for faster moving companies like startups.

MEG GOETSCH: I think process is such a big part of what RevOps does, people, process, technology, kind of whatever three buckets you put that into. And something that I try to always remember is just be very aware of the state of the people you're working with. So if you're in an organization and let's say you're building from the ground up, you're at your early stage.

Maybe you have a blank slate. Other times you're in a later stage and you're transforming what's already been built. As you think about what processes you need, and usually these processes are underpinning better business insights, predictability, but think about the steps you need to take to get to a fully formed process. You might need to kind of crawl, walk, run type of approaches.

If you go, if you over-rotate, your process just falls on its face and it doesn't actually become effective. That's why I always love having enablement in my scope because they are really, really helpful as being sounding boards, as you're thinking about processes that you want to roll out and then also helping you be productive there. 

So just thinking about the balance of driving change, but doing it in a cadence and a pace that people can absorb and adopt.

When you're in fast moving environments that can be really hard to do because you want to do so much at once. And so it's just being very clear on kind of, I think about a two track mentality. What do you need to do immediately and drive change about versus what is a longer term plan that you're slowly building and optimizing for.

So don't know if that's super clear guidance there, but it is, it's just, it's all about balance to get that effectiveness.

ELIO NARCISO: At Forter particularly, were you the first VP in this role or had there already been some stuff in place before you joined?

MEG GOETSCH: So almost over a decade old company, there had been people in place before. A lot of my work and my team's work at Forter has been more of a transformation. So what has existed, where are we trying to get to? And then what's the behavior change or the process change that we need to drive to get from where we are today to where we're going? Very classic set of problems when you come into later stage startups. And one of the big pieces there is just knowing the history and asking the questions. 

So you have the context for why something is the way it is, so that when you go try to totally change it or slightly change it, you've also got some of those clues on exactly how to do that implementation and enablement.

ELIO NARCISO: Very cool. 

A couple of weeks ago, I was at a session with about 30 CROs in one room, mid market and app type of companies. And there was a huge debate about what the first 90 days of a CRO looked like. 

I'm curious specifically for the experience of Forter, where you've been very successful, what did the first 90 days look like? How did you start prioritizing things to do there?

MEG GOETSCH: I think a lot about the table stakes of a revenue operations organization and getting really clear on those. So kind of a high level, what is your forecasting process? How are you predicting bookings and predictability of the business? Getting really clear on your financial models and the inputs that are in there, the assumptions that are in there and how those are directly applying to what you're seeing in the field.

Getting clear on any other models like a pipeline model that might be there in the business, and then just listening and watching those processes. So it's definitely a blend of absorbing and understanding exactly what's happening while getting pretty surgical and digging into the models and the assumptions and the data that are underpinning whatever decisions have been made around the financial, you know, Go-to-Market strategy, financial strategy.

And then what's happening across the team. So who's doing what, who owns what, where are their gaps? So kind of taking that approach and then you're really not making, there's going to be some quick wins that you can figure out in the first week sometimes with depending on the type of operational context you come into. And also of course you've learned some amount of things while you've been interviewing, but your systematic changes, a roadmap that really needs to wait until you've done some of this analysis and studying.

There's certain times where you're going to want to spend even more than 90 days in those areas. It's kind of understanding the biggest business needs versus where you could pretty quickly say, you know, we absolutely need new sales methodology. And that's what we're going to double down on with this part of the team. 

So it's a little, it really, I've learned from the businesses I've seen, really depends on the business that you're in, but diagnosing where you're at upfront and as quickly as you can is gonna be most critical to your success.

ELIO NARCISO: I think it's a great answer because also at that panel with those 30 CROs, they were basically at the end two camps. 

The camp of moving fast, basically quick wins and action, action, action. And the other camp was more like, you don't have infinite time to ask questions. So you need to ask a lot of questions at the very beginning because if you start asking questions like six months down the road, people go and tell you why haven't you asked these questions before? And so there were two clear camps of people that think action is very important. It's all about the quick wins. And then the other that needs to learn and ask a lot of questions deep into the organization to know what to do. And it seems that you are crafting a strategy that is the best of both worlds, which is great in my opinion.

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, and I'd ask those CROs if they have operations people, because I honestly can change how you think about your first 90 days is how much support might already exist or some fluency that the ops team can support you on versus if you don't have analytics, you don't have certain things set up, you very much have to ask a lot more questions.

ELIO NARCISO: And that's great because also there was a lot of debate about what is that RevOps and I think, I mean, it's a fast growing job category in America and a lot of companies are embracing it, but I think that there is still a lot of learning that people are doing. And again, in this CRO group, there was a group that was always systems and ops and then the other group, which is not actually super strategic. If you have a fast growing sizable company and you don't have a super fluent RevOps team, know, things are going to fall apart. and so in that framework, I'm curious about challenges that you're faced leading revenue operations. We can say that you are a pioneer in this category. And so what were the challenges from which you learned a lot and that you applied in subsequent roles?

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, I mean, I really did believe in this concept of RevOps. That's part of why I moved out of marketing ops. And I still do, having done it in a handful of different contexts, having a centralized organization, supporting your systems, processes, programs, enablement, all that is going to be really beneficial for the business.

Something I've been reflecting on a lot more recently is it's all about the company having clarity on their go-to-market strategy.

And that can be tough, right? Your company's vision might still be in development or you're redefining it, thinking about where the company wants to be in five years, three years, one year. That all is super important inputs to your go-to-market strategy. 

And something I've seen with RevOps where they can fall flat or just not fully embrace that centralized mission is when it's kind of who you report into. You have to report to someone in this group. 

And so usually that's a CRO. Sometimes it's a CCO. Sometimes it's a CMO. But if those are three C levels that then report into the top level executives, we actually have to think about that person that owns this group as also an arbiter of the Go-to-Market strategy. And really they are responsible with their RevOps leader for distilling that strategy into a way that an operations enablement system, etcetera, can really properly execute it. I've seen other situations where it's kind of focused the most on whoever you report into. And that can just create, then you kind of get more of a Sales Ops organization than a Go-to-Market Ops.

So it's something that's really interesting to think about is how you place it. I've also had the pleasure of reporting into a CEO and COO, in my path to neutral parties, if you will, to the go-to-market leaders. But then that's all about them having the time to spend in go-to-market. And again, if you don't have that clarity on the strategy, it's going to be a similar outcome. So I'm one go-to-market ops leader and he says, you know, I have one slide. That's the Go-to-Market strategy for the year ahead. And I pull it up in every single meeting I'm in. I don't care if I'm with product or finance, it's the first thing that I pull up just to remind everyone what GoToMarket is focused on and being able to create that clarity and keep it evolving as a company evolves is the biggest impacts you can have as the leader of the org. It's really difficult to do.

ELIO NARCISO: Lots of things that are super interesting to me in that. So first off reporting lines. I most likely report to CROs or even CEOs in smaller companies. I rarely have seen COOs and that's interesting, right? So why do you think that is? It's because like, you know, it's basically a strategy role rather than pure ops or it's because like it's really aligned with the revenue generation, hence CEO CROs.

MEG GOETSCH: When I reported to the COO, it was just like we were in between a CRO. The go-to-market leadership was actually in flux, actually, across the board. And so it was like a reliable, steady executive that could help, like, break the ship while we were rebuilding leadership. So sometimes that can be like an interim approach. And then, CRO is most common.

We've also been starting to see more CROs who own marketing and customers or that maybe they're called a President of Go-to-Market or Chief Commercial Officer. I've been seeing that a lot more. That's a great person for RevOps to report into because again, they are responsible for the Go-to-Market strategy. 

So it's whoever can kind of play that role and the companies all shook hands and agreed that this person is representing that. Otherwise, you'll just get an org that will be slightly modified towards whichever the focus area of that leader is.

ELIO NARCISO: I think that CRO needs to own revenues, hence it includes marketing. To me, it does, not just sales, because otherwise it's like, you're starting to divide too much and like there is no one goal, which is revenue. So what I've seen working the most effectively is like CRO owns sales and marketing.

And then RevOps is really a direct line to the CRO, helping them build all of the systems and operations and strategy that you need in order to run revenues.

MEG GOETSCH: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a controversial opinion, right? Because CMOs do not want to report to CROs. And then marketing spends a bunch of time on stuff that isn't always directly tied to revenue. But I agree. I'm supportive of

ELIO NARCISO: Very, I know. And also frankly, I think that it depends if you work at Unilever, where the CMO runs the show, right? 

So I think it really depends on what type of organization you’re at, how you accomplish revenues. What's the business? But if it's a sales led effort that basically runs like the majority of revenues, everything needs to go towards that. So I think that that's the assumption that we're talking about a certain type of companies and businesses that are sales driven really and everything needs to support that effort. 

But I do know it's controversial. And that's what I think that I've observed to be the most effective for those types of companies. 

I find myself in this situation constantly. I'm always repeating a lot with sales, product, investors,but also with potential customers, customers. And I find that it's so useful.

You have to constantly repeat the key drivers of what you're trying to accomplish. So I was curious if you use some of that message reinforcement when you talk to your leadership, when you talk to your teams, when you talk to people with product responsibilities and so forth. 

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, I could get so much. I'm not like I’m super skilled at that. It's something I'm definitely working on. But if you have former consultants on your team or someone that can finance is great for this too, just create that visual that can distill your strategy. It helps so much. But I think my years at Amazon have made my slide production skills very low. 

ELIO NARCISO: Hahaha …long form. I actually loved the long form. The slide format is when I started my career in management consulting. So I actually first developed that and then moved to long form. I think long form, you know, six out of 10 is better. But I was focusing on explaining the vision, explaining why we're doing certain things and repeating myself constantly to explain the framework. And I was curious if you use that technique almost to align lots of different themes when you have meetings with leadership or with product or with other people in your org or maybe externally.

MEG GOETSCH: I definitely need to improve that for sure with my own team. I do reinforce our vision and mission statement at every team meeting just kind of always setting the context of that, which can be useful if those are impactful statements. 

Yeah, but one of the things I'm trying to really get clarity on for Forter is what are those focus areas? And so we've been getting better at it for sure, but the consistency of the message, it goes so far. Then, that's part of, when you think about why Amazon was so successful, it's leadership principles. It was just like, always in your mind. And so part of the consistency of the message, it becomes a common language. And so you start saying these things and, someone already knows what you mean halfway into the sentence, just helps you move faster in alignment.

ELIO NARCISO: Yeah. I totally agree. I think the example of Amazon is a good one here because repetition was the technique that was used. I mean we heard this leadership principle everywhere. They were plastered on the walls and people used them in meetings. One of the things that I keep repeating to whoever would listen really is that in many ways, in B2B, technology has failed us. And so I'll explain. We use apps, you know, whatever.

Instagram, TikTok and like consume Airbnb and all of these like consumer apps are for the most part amazing and they just work without effort and I don't need to read a manual and there is no enablement and they just start to make sense as I use them and instead my observation I'm not the only one but like it's part of my mantra is that in the business world, technology has failed us and that like somehow we dropped the expectations that we have in consumer as consumers using these apps. 

And so, we basically accept the systems are clunkier and not as easy to use, because we need support and training and all of that. And so my curiosity is like, do you share some of this or at all? What's your observation since you use a lot of tools and a lot of systems in your team

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, no, it's such a good point.

I think the AI boom that we're in just puts a mirror up to the problem even in a bigger way. I don't have a really great snappy analysis of what's happening, but I agree. I think one of the things that I always think about for my sellers especially is how many tools they're logging into any day to do their job and how do you streamline that in an effective way?

And you're starting to see that across all the different platforms. More and more platforms are having forecasting and call recording and AI call nodes and all the things kind of coming together, which I think makes a lot of sense and it can create a lot of benefit for the folks that use those tools.

But it does feel like we still have this gap in being able to translate some of this unspoken rules-based decision making that we do analog into the systems.

Part of what's so interesting about Scalestack is that you're basically trying to bring in AI to automate what an operations analyst is doing manually. So I'm playing around in Excel trying to organize data. So I'm excited for where we're going. 

There's a lot at Forter, particularly, we just didn't have a lot of automation in place. So a lot of our work right now is kind of the basics of automation. Like we're implementing CPQ and it's just really interesting going through that process. Cause if you haven't thought about automation in your workflows in the past, you've just built them manually and low tech. You really can feel failed by technology because it feels like such a large gap to get to that next stage. And I think there's certain areas of selling and selling productivity apps that are like that too. So really thinking about, how do you cross the chasm in some of these areas that are truly essentially just like a manual, now, in putting information into a field, into something that's more AI driven and automated.

ELIO NARCISO: Yeah, there was an artist, I forgot her name, but like a few months ago, she went viral saying, I want AI to do my laundry so that I can do my arts and writing. So sort of that's the hope here, right? That AI will be such a catalyst for streamlining, automating a lot of the stuff that is more manual, is more boring so that we can, you know, as humans, can focus our attention on what like requires strategy and thinking and big system analysis and all of that. 

And so I'm curious in your case, like, you know, what is the balance between like, you know, thinking Go-to-Market strategy in your current role, Go-to-Market strategy and instead thinking about  straight operations and if you have a goal to rebalance that over the next months or years.

MEG GOETSCH: Yeah, I mean, like I said, we're building so much of the foundational stuff right now. So that's the focus. And then where we can do an AI first approach, we're doing that as much as possible.

So even we have to migrate all of our historical dozens of years of contracts into a system that can be read through by a contract management system and CPQ. We are looking at AI tooling for that first as opposed to what you historically do, which is hire a bunch of contractors, paralegals and just feed them pizza for days. 

And then with data enrichment, right, you know, part of what we've been talking about, trying to think about like, how do you just do a better data enrichment strategy? Because we don't have some of the analysts and things in place that could do some of that data crunching. So I would say we're being opportunistic, focused on like the key areas we need to build up first and then as we can move into some more technology driven, AI driven approaches.

ELIO NARCISO: Very good. I would say, one to three years from now, things will look very different. And so, what would be your advice to somebody that wants to be a RevOps, Sales Ops leader that is entering now?  What would be your advice to these aspiring Sales Ops leaders?

MEG GOETSCH: This isn't a technology forward piece of advice, but something that I think is super important when you go from that Sales Ops manager to that Sales Ops leader is just getting to know the financials of your business. 

This is actually true for a lot of different roles.

The purpose of you as a leader, before you're a leader too, but really becomes clear when you are a leader, is that you have to make sure you're propelling the company to hit its financial milestones, so being able to spend time with your finance team to understand the finance model.

If you don't have the training or background on how to read a P&L, go take an online course. There's like so many about them now, listen to a talk and really understand how your work or the work that you're influencing with sales efficiency and productivity directly feeds into that model. 

That's gonna just propel you to be focused on really the strategic needle moving items because you hopefully have a team underneath you handling the other really important pieces. But you know, kind of the day-to-day tactical pieces. So that's often like when I coach folks and go to that leadership stuff, just make sure you really get finance and become friends with your finance team. It goes leaps and bounds.

ELIO NARCISO: Yeah, I'm Italian. I moved here to the US to do an MBA and strangely enough, the best class that I took, one of the two best, the other one was negotiation, was accounting.

And the reason and well the guy was phenomenal actually, I forget his name. Unfortunately, I should look it up. But by knowing how to read an annual report you would gather so many insights. 

They seem inaccessible to most even though they are written in the PNL in the financial report there. It's all written there, but you need to know how to read it and then you can sort of work backwards to understand what's the business and what are the main drivers and what's working and what not and what needs to be fixed because it's important and so forth. So 100 % agree even if it's not technology. 

Although technology, now AI, can help us read annual reports in a pretty in-depth way and then draw conclusions.

MEG GOETSCH: And if you don't have an annual report, mean, just know, like ask your finance team, what are the assumptions going into the model? Just please list them out and define them for me. Because I can, I found like in a couple of environments where I really, didn't actually ask that assumption question deeply enough. No, you sure we got all those assumptions laid out there? Because those are the things that really can impact how you look at the business.

ELIO NARCISO: I think that as you were talking, something that came to mind is like, you need to know how things work to even change them. The curiosity, like even the curiosity to, you know, ask the questions and understand and dive deeper are like, you know, so important. And so like, you know,I meant annual reports because I was thinking about the accounting class, which mostly dealt with things like, you know, public companies. But at the end of the day, that's a skill in terms of like, do you know how this thing works? 

MEG GOETSCH: That’ll be great, I mean, if you get to work with sellers every day that are great at discovery, just try to learn those skills, because they, you can find out so much.

ELIO NARCISO: They know how to ask the questions and how to get like, you know, insights from people that can drive the deal forward. Very cool, Meg. This was super fun. Maybe one last question for you is we're talking maybe connected to this, how things works and one tool is reading, obviously. And so I'm curious about what you typically read and maybe a book that you read recently that you really liked.

MEG GOETSCH: I love reading. I'm usually always reading a fiction novel. That's kind of how I unwind at the end of the day. But I thought I'd call out a nonfiction book. It's called Love and Whiskey by Fawn Weaver. And it's a really cool story about the distiller that influenced Jack Daniel's distilling. His name was Nearest Green. He's an African-American man. And it's the story of that, the relationship of how he influenced that business. 

But then also, the writer is an entrepreneur herself and she's standing at the distilling company in his legacy. So just a really great read, really easy read. I'm sure it'll be like a TV series soon enough, but a good one to pick up.

ELIO NARCISO: And maybe very cool. I love the story. Did they also go into how whiskey is made and all of the innovation on how things work. 

MEG GOETSCH: And you can go buy the whiskey too if you want to drink whiskey while reading.

ELIO NARCISO: Very cool, Meg. Well, this was great. Thank you so much for spending some time with us and good luck with Forter and everything else. And thank you.

MEG GOETSCH: Thanks for having me.

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